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Post by OfLegend on Oct 30, 2006 17:54:22 GMT
Your list very much resembles mine, Jane, especially the top ten (except I've had Jumbo at number 1 for a fair while).
As for the names you mentioned, I wouldn't bother with Inoki. He's just not top 70 material by any means, and I certainly wouldn't put him ahead of Bam Bam, Dump, Steiner or Sasaki. Baba's worth a look if you can find the right matches, but I'd still put him in Andre the Giant's league until I see better matches.
From what I've seen, Takada is awesome. Everyone should watch this man work, he's phenomenal in the way he does everything so well, both in a physical and a mental sense. I'm constantly on the look out for more matches from him, because I've been told he's astonishingly consistent (which is certainly believable to me, as I've seen great matches of his against both Akira Maeda and Vader), and if so, could end up being a rival for Liger at the top of the juniors.
I've seen nothing from Koshinaka that I remember. So, if anyone finds anything, please share.
The Destroyer is really good from what I've seen (just some very well put together matches vs Stan Hansen and others), but again, I need to find more. He definitely hasn't looked out of place in any of the aforementioned matches, which have all been against top guys. Not one to be carried, obviously. If anything, I'd say he controlled at leats two of the Hansen matches.
Jack Brisco is great to watch if you're a fan of mat wrestling and limb psychology. A real icon of the old school technical style and had truly great matches against Funk and Race. Deserves a top 50 placing at least, and should definitely be ahead of Malenko and Angle. I'd have similar praise for Dory.
I've not been overly impressed with Riki Chosu, but perhaps I've been watching the wrong matches. It was fun watching him become just another victim of Maeda.
Seen very little of Sato, Sano and Tanahashi.
Kanemaru is one of my favourite juniors going. I've never seen him in a bad match or even one that wasn't at least pushing for *** or ***1/2, and excelled against Liger and KENTA in the Dome. I'm surprised he hasn't garnered more acclaim, since he's been going strong since the late '90s.
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Post by tequillin on Oct 30, 2006 20:49:49 GMT
Koshinaka was great during the late 80's. I'll put up a match of his against Liger from '88. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a whole lot from him.
He supposedly had a couple of good matches with Owen Hart in '88 and likely the other juniors aswell, so he's a name to look out for.
Sano I probably wouldn't worry about too much. His best matches are his series with Liger from '89 spanning into early '90. It's an amazing series and Andy's just put them up in the media section. All are worth checking out and even though Liger is obviously the main player, Sano holds his own and proves he's no slouch. The January 1990 match is one of the matches of the year and if you haven't seen that match or the series, please do as you will probably want to bump Liger up just off those, they're that good. Sano whilst good I wouldn't put in the 100, from what I've seen anyway.
My watch list is quite large unfortunately and mainly consists of the older generation like Dr Death, Terry Gordy, Jack Brisco, Inoki, Windham, Murdoch, etc and even Vader's Japan work. I could do with more Hansen, Funk and early Jumbo viewing aswell. I have plrenty to watch though so when I find the time the list will get shorter.
I'm not fully sure why yet, but I currently have Kobashi a spot above Misawa. Of, I remember you writing a post about how closely matched they are and how it's so close between them and I agree. I'll have to find your post as it painted a clear picture to the situation.
Some names I'm hearing good things about but are yet to have seen anything by is Kazuo Yamakazi and Yoshiaki Fujiwara. They worked a hell of a lot for UWF, which I honestly find hard to rate as it's mainly all shooting. I'll probably leave any of the shoot promotions out as it's not really about the pro-wrestling aspect and 'psykologie'.
Off-topic (as I tend to do a lot these days) but I found out Marty Jannetty had a match against Misawa from '85.
Also I watched Ricky Steamboat vs Jumbo Tsuruta yesterday and it was honestly pretty shite. I had to keep pausing it and watching a bit at a time (something I never do) it was that boring and pointless. Nothing against Jumbo but he just seemed like he couldn't be arsed and didn't want to do much for Ricky. Maybe it was due to my tiredness but that's the impression I got.
Of, I just noticed you have Yoshiaki Fujiwara at #37 and #52
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Post by Silver Kyle on Oct 31, 2006 1:16:41 GMT
Your list very much resembles mine, Jane, especially the top ten (except I've had Jumbo at number 1 for a fair while). As for the names you mentioned, I wouldn't bother with Inoki. He's just not top 70 material by any means, and I certainly wouldn't put him ahead of Bam Bam, Dump, Steiner or Sasaki. Baba's worth a look if you can find the right matches, but I'd still put him in Andre the Giant's league until I see better matches. From what I've seen, Takada is awesome. Everyone should watch this man work, he's phenomenal in the way he does everything so well, both in a physical and a mental sense. I'm constantly on the look out for more matches from him, because I've been told he's astonishingly consistent (which is certainly believable to me, as I've seen great matches of his against both Akira Maeda and Vader), and if so, could end up being a rival for Liger at the top of the juniors. I've seen nothing from Koshinaka that I remember. So, if anyone finds anything, please share. The Destroyer is really good from what I've seen (just some very well put together matches vs Stan Hansen and others), but again, I need to find more. He definitely hasn't looked out of place in any of the aforementioned matches, which have all been against top guys. Not one to be carried, obviously. If anything, I'd say he controlled at leats two of the Hansen matches. Jack Brisco is great to watch if you're a fan of mat wrestling and limb psychology. A real icon of the old school technical style and had truly great matches against Funk and Race. Deserves a top 50 placing at least, and should definitely be ahead of Malenko and Angle. I'd have similar praise for Dory. I've not been overly impressed with Riki Chosu, but perhaps I've been watching the wrong matches. It was fun watching him become just another victim of Maeda. Seen very little of Sato, Sano and Tanahashi. Kanemaru is one of my favourite juniors going. I've never seen him in a bad match or even one that wasn't at least pushing for *** or ***1/2, and excelled against Liger and KENTA in the Dome. I'm surprised he hasn't garnered more acclaim, since he's been going strong since the late '90s. I have a few matches from all of those people except Jackie Sato. For Giant Baba I have: - 3/5/69 Baba vs. Destroyer - 12/2/74 Baba vs. Brisco - 3/13/75 Baba & Jumbo vs. The Funks - 12/14/77 Baba & Jumbo vs. Terry & Dory Funk For Nobuhiko Takada I have: - 9/1/87 Nobuhiko Takada Akira Maeda vs. Yoshiaki Fujiwara & Kazuo Yamazaki - 8/18/94 Nobuhiko Takada vs. Vader For Shiro Koshinaka I have: - 12/9/88 Shiro Koshinaka vs. Keiichi Yamada - 11/18/05 Koshinaka & Akiyama vs. Kobashi & Shiga - 12/4/05 Kobashi & Izumida vs. Tenryu & Koshinaka For Destroyer I have: - 12/2/63 Destroyer vs. Rikidozan - 3/5/69 Destroyer vs. Baba - 7/25/74 Destroyer vs. Mil Mascaras - 12/15/75 Destroyer vs. Hiro Matsuda ... and I'm getting to lazy to write the rest but I have: - 4 for Dory Funk Jr. - 7 for Yoshinobu Kanemaru - 1 for Hiroshi Tanahashi - 4 for Jack Brisco So if any of you are interested in any of these matches just say so and I'll upload them for you.
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Post by euanzooom on Oct 31, 2006 16:17:06 GMT
Some interseting stuff here.
I'm in uni but I'll be sure to elaborate further.
Did I ever put up Jumbo v Jack Brisco in their best out of three falls match or Jumbo v Funk? Both superb matches.
@ Teq. The only complaint I ever heard against Jumbo was that, in his 70s to 80s work, a lot of his matches were hard viewing becuase the pace is so slow. What year is the Steamboat match?
@ Silver Kyle. Sounds like you got some shit that I'd want. I'll put up whatever Hennig matches you want by the way. Haven't checked back on that thread yet but will do so sometime today
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Post by Silver Kyle on Oct 31, 2006 19:34:04 GMT
Sounds like a fair exchange I'd say!
Which of those wrestlers I mentioned would you be interested in? Name them and I'll post the matches that I have of them.
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Post by tequillin on Oct 31, 2006 21:42:05 GMT
It's from '89. I was surprised at how slow it was. It wasn't even necessarily 'methodically' slow, it just seemed like a waste of time upon my initial viewing. It's not utterly disgusting but it did absolutely nothing for me whatsoever which is weird seeing as though I love Jumbo's work from that period and also love Steamboat regardless of the year (even his '91 WWF run)
Ditch's site has Jumbo vs Funk and a couple of Brisco matches. Worth a detailed look through his site as it has allsorts.
Race/Jumbo 2/3 Falls is awesome. I have Flair/Jumbo to watch tonight.
We could maybe make a thread in the media section dedicated to a lot of the old school stuff that people may not have seen, myself included.
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Post by Silver Kyle on Oct 31, 2006 22:09:12 GMT
Yeah I got most of my matches from Ditch's site. He's got a lot of good matches there.
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Post by OfLegend on Nov 19, 2006 14:59:15 GMT
I'll perform cunnilingus/suck cock for some Takada matches.
Preferably the former, but beggars can't be choosers.
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Post by thatdude21601 on Dec 23, 2006 21:25:36 GMT
My list would be like(top 20 ...I get lost on the lower guys, forgetting people and such. Plus trying to grade Mima Shimoda vs Dick Togo is mindbending):
1. Toshiaki Kawada 2. Jumbo Tsuruta 3. Akira Hokuto 4. Nobuhiko Takada 5. Harley Race 6. Devil Masami 7. Terry Funk 8. Rock'em Sock'em Liger 9. Chris Benoit 10. Dan Kroffat II 11. Steve Austin 12. Mayumi Ozaki 13. Aja Kong 14. Mitsuhara Misawa 15. Manami Toyota 16. Akira Taue 17. Eddie Guerrero 18. Stan Hansen 19. Jerry Lawler 20. Kenta Kobashi
People I swear I want on my list(Just not sure I can say they have amused me more then Kobashi):
Dynamite Kansai: Particulary in unison or against Ozaki.
Genichiro Tenryu: Awesome music, awesome hair, really weird booker. He's worked everywhere, and he gets more surly and awesome with age.
Flair: Flair is hilarious. He's forever wooo!, all that stuff. Same deal as Tenryu. Surly weird old Flair rules.
Masa Fuchi: Fuchi may be my favorite jr. of all time. He's crazy and ruthless, but he looks like a happy old man. 1990's All Japan jrs are slept on(because Ohtani/Liger/Benoit/Eddy/M-Pro were so cool). Fuchi beating the crap out of Kroffat or Kikuchi = A+.
People that probably should be on, but I've onlu seen dozen or less matches:
Santo Jr. Destroyer Billy Robinson Jack Briscoe Jagaur Yokota
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Post by Joker on Dec 27, 2006 3:17:08 GMT
I'll perform cunnilingus/suck cock for some Takada matches. Preferably the former, but beggars can't be choosers. www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~h-iwao/What's your address?
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Post by Andy_3:16 on Dec 27, 2006 3:23:22 GMT
I'll perform cunnilingus/suck cock for some Takada matches. Preferably the former, but beggars can't be choosers. www1.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~h-iwao/Both Knees sir! There's nothing on it.
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Post by Joker on Dec 27, 2006 3:24:14 GMT
Go all the way to the bottom. and Click here to download.
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Post by Joker on Dec 27, 2006 5:44:55 GMT
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Post by OfLegend on Jan 3, 2007 1:37:52 GMT
Sorry, what I meant to say is that I'll suck for some WRESTLING matches. I have no interest in Takada's farcical MMA career.
And my top 100 is finally done! Although it will, no doubt, continue to change until the day I die.
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Post by tequillin on Jan 3, 2007 19:04:10 GMT
Of, what do you base Takada being so high on?
I find it extremely difficult to anaylse UWF in the same sense that I do a regular Puro or American style match. I can't get the feel for it one bit and a lot of the things that come into play with normal pro-wrestling such as playing to the crowd, interaction, selling, getting opponents over, carrying, blah blah doesn't seem to be the case within the UWF's worked, shoot style.
I don't mind the match against Yamakazi that Meltzer gave 5* in '84 but I can't see it being 5* in the same way a regular match would be if you get me. Its just so different.
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Post by thatdude21601 on Jan 3, 2007 19:26:51 GMT
Choshu is a guy I always forget about . I've not watched the Choshu Army invades All Japan stuff yet though, which is supposed to be sweet. Fujiwara too. As I've mostly seen his old weird guy matches. Takada is so great because ...even though at first glance his shoot style seems fairly one dimensional, he can work it around anyone (except apparently Mutoh, but Mutoh can be a black hole so eh). His UWFi matches with Vader are a huge step above Vader's other shoot stuff (except the squash of Tamura which is hilarious). The Hashimoto Dome match was huge, and good..he worked well with Tenryu, Koshinaka etc. He's the only person other then Kawada that I've seen make Gary Albright look legit great. Lot's of good matches within his regular enviroment with other shooty dudes like Yamazaki, Maeda, Sano, Tamura, etc. Plus he was absurdly handsome. I've not seen much of his NJ junior stuff except with Maeda & Koshinaka, but it's supposedly fun too. I imagine there's some badass Liger or Cobra matches in there. It's entirely possible I would have Takada at #1 if he worked with Kawada, Gordy Hansen, Misawa, Taue, Fuchi, Kroffat, etc.
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Post by janedoe95 on Jan 5, 2007 1:31:56 GMT
Great work, Of. Some similarities to my list, and some names I might have to add to my watch list. Glad to see another completed 100 list(gives me proof I'm not the only one with too much time on my hands. LOL J/K), as I like having another list to compare and contrast with mines(which is also subject to changes).
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Post by OfLegend on Jan 5, 2007 14:20:43 GMT
I've only seen about thirty Takada matches, but that's been enough for me to re-evaluate my ideas about pro wrestling. Usually, even with the best workers, I semi-consciously go flaw-spotting, and with him I came up blank again and again. Not always my cup of tea, but within his own worked-shoot context, the man was as close to perfect as one can get. Like that dude said, he adapted to practically every size and style over the course of his career, and whether it's the sort of thing I would normally seek out or not, I have to give that sort of plus the accolade it deserves.
I mark for that match. Tamura must wish he never made his journey to the White Castle of Fear.
Indeed, it is handy and a breath of fresh air when you're not the only one. I say we should force Euan, Teq, Nathan and others to post lists, on penalty of having to watch Mark Henry's Greatest Hits.
What are people's thoughts on a SmarksChoice-esque (but not too much) project, where we get as many people as possible to post Top 100s and work out who the top AWT guys are? I imagine the results will be much different from the last time we attempted something similar.
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Post by tequillin on Jan 5, 2007 15:23:20 GMT
Well I've seen less than 5 Takada matches, which is why I simply cannot place him within my list as of yet.
I would have posted my list ages ago but I'm constantly seeing more of certain people, changing it and always find myself questioning my positioning of certain people.
I shouldn't even be including Funk or Race on my list to be honest as I've seen less than 10 of their matches from their primes all those years ago.
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Post by David on Jan 5, 2007 16:39:04 GMT
Ehm... El Dandy???
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