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Post by Mr-Brightside on Sept 17, 2006 18:45:59 GMT
If I were going to criticise Michaels, I'd have to put aside all the criteria I'd normally use to assess or praise American workers and do it completely from a Japanese perspective. He's not stiff enough to be realistic, he needs more mat holds, etc. etc. Like Jane says, not every wrestler should approach a match in the same way. And that's why I tend not to contexualise so avidly, if at all. When rating a workers ability I think it helps to first see them as generic entities and then start to break them down based on personal preference and or the things we smarks tend to nit-pick at (role playing, maintenance of verisimilitude, story telling ability, psychology etc). Personally, as a person who harbors a mild obsession with psychology (particularly character and feud), and storytelling I do tend to find it difficult to make these sorts of lists without some sort of bias coming into play. My lack of puro knowledge is another thing that holds me back and is probably the primary reason as to why I'll refrain from putting a list together. There're some interesting viewpoints within this thread, nonetheless.
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Post by tequillin on Sept 17, 2006 18:51:42 GMT
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Post by euanzooom on Sept 17, 2006 19:02:04 GMT
You are picking 3 single case issues from a career spanning 20 years. My point is, if your going to take umbrage with reality issues in cage matches, ladder matches and the like, then you might as well not watch WWE at all.
We all know you are a big Puro fan, and that you would denounce 90% of WWE matches as would I. All I suggest is that there are far more relevent parts to a wrestler's quality of work ie. overall things such as ability to pace a match, or ability to bump, or ability to connect with the fans that can be used to discern how good they are. Instead of singling out minor details from 2 or 3 matches, come to a conclusion on a wrestlers ability at for several things on the back of tens and hundreds of matches and explain an overview.
I'm now coming across as arsy, I more mean't that I see no point in exchanging token gaffs from some matches when discussing about why you've put someone in a position in your greatest workers thread, instead of just saying 'well I thought Michaels psychology sucked sometimes'.
I've not explained myself well at all which is really annoying me.
I have no doubt in my mind that if you had the footage available, and the time to waste, you could notice the kind of errors that you mention in just about every wrestler.
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 19:18:35 GMT
Brighty, you could make a North American list anyway.
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Post by janedoe95 on Sept 17, 2006 19:41:18 GMT
Yeah I agree. Quite frankly I'd much rather see a Brighty list restricted to North Americans, than I would a list from most posters likely to participate whom plan on including foreigners. If you could just do a top 50 North Americans list, that would be fine. And btw Of, I noticed this last night but was going to give you time to catch and edit it, but since you still haven't done so.... you have Tatsumi Fujinami listed at both 17 and 65 on your revamped list.
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 17, 2006 20:23:33 GMT
Those were merely two examples, of which I could’ve listed several. It has more to do with taking the time to list them than not being able to actually do so. Perhaps I should’ve kept it short and sweet and said “sometimes I dislike his logic, or lack thereof”, but then you would’ve asked me to explain myself in further detail…
My comments may or may not match your opinion, but I can justify them to myself. Just because the same flaws are evident in many other matches, it doesn’t mean I haven’t noted them, or that I accept them.
It’s a question of taking a wrestler, and trying to determine where he sits in a list of one-hundred other workers. Like everybody else, I have done that. How do you determine this? By finding flaws in that particular worker, even if those flaws are not recognised as such by others, or are flaws you would not normally mention.
Ultimately, I feel the same could be said for your criticism of Kenta Kobashi for his style of working (use of too many chops, “hulking-up”, or something along those lines). By your own admission, it comes down to personal preference, so is it fair to base your rating of Kobashi on things that can be explained by others as being part of his character?
Yes, if you can justify them.
Misawa’s selling was noted by Of as a flaw, and he justified it. Personally I look at many of Misawa’s matches and think his selling was outstanding. Here was a man who would suffer an injury to his left arm or leg, for example, and start delivering his offence with his right arm of leg, for the remainder of a match. It may not have got his opponent over in a blatant way, but it was his subtlety that I felt added a sense of realism to his matches. Of course, not being keen on what people consider “over-selling” I am naturally biased.
Logic, to me, is probably the most important thing in a wrestling match. If you can justify to yourself that Michaels would do such things, based on his show-stealing character, that’s great for you. I remain unconvinced and view it as a flaw, and one of very few.
Anyway, I hope this doesn’t come across as me being a dick, because that is not my intention.
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Sept 17, 2006 20:39:53 GMT
I'm now coming across as arsy Anyway, I hope this doesn’t come across as me being a dick, because that is not my intention. Urgh, someone pass me a fucking bucket...
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Post by euanzooom on Sept 17, 2006 22:18:06 GMT
Teq, go round to his house and put him out of his misery.
I didn't criticise him. I merely used it as a decisive factor in picking between two people that I feel are even in terms of how I rated them (having already looked at all the relevent factors to come to this conclusion). The only way you can do this is with some personal preference.
So, using the incidents you cited, have you actually marked down Michaels for poor psychology when judging how good he is for your list?
The point I was trying to make (but has now been made to look so much bigger than was originally intended) is that some cases of poor logic in a triple threat match and a ladder match do not, in my opinion, seem reasonable reasons for marking down a wrestler for poor psychology.
I'm not saying your wrong in noticing them, Nathan, because you are not, I was merely saying that I didn't see the point in using these examples as a means of talking about how good Shawn Michaels is. If you've noticed that Michael's work (spanning hundreds of matches) is littered with poor psychology from match to match then....cool, and I would like to hear about them.
I still stand by my point that you could probably notice very similar examples for just about EVERY wrestler that has wrestled these types of matches, but you couldn't mark them all down for having poor psychology.
Would you use a similar example to mark down Benoit in psychology from his ladder match with Jericho?
Or would you mark down a wrestler for psychology in a hardcore environment if his opponent was down and there was a chair in the ring, yet the wrestler goes outside to get a table to bring into the ring to put the opponent through it? Why not just pick up the chair and waffle the opponent with it 40 times?
This is what I meant by saying that if you go down that road, then you might as well not watch WWE at all.
Exactly. Of made that point and did so by giving an overview of how he had a small disliking for how Misawa tends to act in most of his matches. The point wasn't made by saying 'I didn't like Misawa's selling because in one match he got hit with a move and then got up just before his opponent did'
I don't believe he gets away with it because of his character, I just don't think you can mark him down for two pieces of poor logic in a ladder match and a triple threat match where the very nature of them is far less about psychology, pacing, mat skills etc and far more about spots, excitement and hair raising stunts.
Does that mean you'll be equally critical of Cena's psychology as a wrestler if he does something similar tonight or will you use it as an example when your discussing how good/bad he was in 6 years time?
As I said, if you do have several examples of poor psychology by Michaels coming from his cv of regular matches then thats completely fair enough.
In the end of the day, you and I are able take a post and get something far more out of it than was originally maybe intended and talk for Britain.
All I really meant was that I thought the examples you were citing for marking Michaels down were not a terribly good case for doing so in man with a career of twenty odd years and hundreds of bouts, especially given the environment of the aforementionment matches.
A wrestler with poor psychology will have inherent flaws that creep into the vast majority of their matches.
I suppose that the errors you mentioned are the kind of thing I'd notice, however, if they weren't coupled by a clear non-understanding of psychology exhibited throughout the wrestlers career, I wouldn't bother mentioning them.
I've now said far more on this matter than I intended and I've come across as if I feel really strongly against what you posted. The reality is that I don't feel as strongly as I sound and I didn't expect it to be a post that would spark debating.
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 17, 2006 23:51:26 GMT
That pretty much sums me up aswell.
I’m picking holes in matches that I’ve never felt inclined to pick holes in before, just to argue a point that I didn’t feel particularly strongly about in the first place.
You may have to wait until tomorrow for me to respond to all of your post, Euan, depending on whether Unforgiven is any good enough to sustain my interest tonight...
EDIT: I’m probably going to leave out gimmick matches, in general.
There are none in Japan, and it would be somewhat unfair to mark down those in the United States for making errors that those in the East have never been put in a position to make.
This is much same way I avoid using crowd reaction when rating a match. It would be unfair on Japanese workers, competing in front of a crowd who, by nature, seldom get worked up, to mark them down for things that are more or less beyond their control.
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Sept 18, 2006 0:08:22 GMT
Sorry to interject, you guys, but the above quote is exactly the reason why the original HIAC match is quite possibly the best hardcore/gimmick match in pro wrestling history. Illogical spots were kept to a minimum and verisimilitude (that's for you, Teq), was paramount, in spite of the character constraints placed upon both men in the WWE environment. That right there is an example of the magic that is Shawn Michaels.
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Post by OfLegend on Oct 25, 2006 13:10:01 GMT
Agreed, Brightside.
Where's everyone up to with this? I'm agonising over the American heavyweight top five: should Shawn be above Terry Funk? How does Steamboat compare with Windham? Is Harley Race the man?
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Post by tequillin on Oct 25, 2006 14:51:58 GMT
I'm not nearly finished my list and it's no doubt going to take me a while yet.
I've not seen enough of Windham, Race or Funk's early work yet to be able to fairly judge.
I'm off for a shit and then I'm gonna watch 5 Flair/Steamboat matches in order.
Of, what did you make of the Funk/Hansen outdoor brawl?
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Post by janedoe95 on Oct 25, 2006 17:15:49 GMT
I doubt more than a couple of people are even working on this. These discussions happen, then they just get abandoned and the subject forgotten about. Plus, not many people even have qualifiable knowledge to begin with.
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Post by OfLegend on Oct 25, 2006 18:16:07 GMT
I haven't seen it all the way through yet. Every time I sit down with a White Russian, something comes up. I'd watch it now, but I have company, and it probably wouldn't go down too well if my elderly aunt walked in on me watching a fat moustached guy kicking the shit out of The Funker.
Yeah, it was addressed at you, Nathan, Teq, Euan, and maybe coolcool and a few others. I don't expect a massive response here, as JJJ and Brightside are uncultured in the world of puro and the majority of the other members are fucking imbeciles.
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Post by Andy_3:16 on Oct 25, 2006 19:14:18 GMT
I'm not even close to finishing. I haven't been watching any matches due to work. It will take me months to do.
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Post by tequillin on Oct 25, 2006 19:15:01 GMT
Haha I guess it wouldn't go down too well with an elderly relative. My Granda used to call my wrestling figures 'stupid bloody dolls' and force me to eat every last fucking scrap of my meal when at his house.
I want to assure you I keep adding to it every now and again and will eventually finish it.
I'm more focused on something else that I will be finished within about 6 weeks. Although I have an essay to write on Blade Runner, on Hegemony and a fucking sound story to create, hopefully it won't hold me up too long.
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Post by janedoe95 on Oct 29, 2006 16:19:00 GMT
I believe no one's posted a top 100. So tell you what, just for the sake of some 'motivation', I'll repost my list...again slightly modified and this time including the remaining 30. It may not be the best list, and it's still a work in progress. But still, someone on here's gotta take the initiative.
1 Mitsuharu Misawa 2 Jumbo Tsuruta 3 Jushin Liger 4 Dynamite Kid 5 Kenta Kobashi 6 Eddie Guerrero 7 Chris Benoit 8 Ricky Steamboat 9 Shawn Michaels 10 Toshiaki Kawada 11 Ric Flair 12 Bret Hart 13 Terry Funk 14 Akira Hokuto 15 Harley Race 16 Genichiro Tenryu 17 Satoru Sayama 18 Barry Windham 19 Shinjiro Otani 20 Randy Savage 21 Manami Toyota 22 Akira Taue 23 Ultimo Dragon 24 Jun Akiyama 25 Jaguar Yokota 26 Curt Hennig 27 Owen Hart 28 Tatsumi Fujinami 29 Keiji Mutoh 30 Shinya Hashimoto 31 Stan Hansen 32 Rey Misterio 33 Aja Kong 34 Masahiro Chono 35 Steve Austin 36 Devil Masami 37 William Regal 38 Vader 39 Ted Dibiase 40 Bull Nakano 41 Steve Williams 42 Nick Bockwinkle 43 Akira Maeda 44 Terry Gordy 45 Bob Backlund 46 Dean Malenko 47 Great Sasuke 48 Kyoko Inoue 49 Arn Anderson 50 Davey Boy Smith 51 Tully Blanchard 52 Rick Rude 53 Lioness Asuka 54 Fit Finlay 55 Taka Michinoku 56 Chigusa Nagayo 57 Hiroshi Hase 58 Yoshiaki Fujiwara 59 Toshiyo Yamada 60 Satoshi Kojima 61 Kurt Angle 62 Yuji Nagata 63 Chris Jericho 64 Mick Foley 65 Brian Pillman 66 Bobby Eaton 67 HHH 68 Marty Jannetty 69 The Rock 70 Koji Kanemoto 71 Juventud Guerrera 72 Masanobu Fuchi 73 Dynamite Kansai 74 Ricky Morton 75 Sting 76 Jinsei Shinzaki 77 Tsuyoshi Kikuchi 78 Rick Martel 79 Hayabusa 80 Yoshihiro Takayama 81 Masato Tanaka 82 Gran Hamada 83 Mima Shimoda 84 Etsuko Mita 85 Psicosis 86 Hiroyoshi Tenzan 87 Too Cold Scorpio 88 Scott Steiner 89 Mariko Yoshida 90 Kensuke Sasake 91 Edge 92 Tito Santana 93 Dump Matsumoto 94 Tiger Mask IV 95 Mr. Gannosuke 96 Yoshinari Ogawa 97 Bam Bam Bigelow 98 El Samurai 99 Megumi Kudo 100 Greg Valentine
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Post by Nathan Versus on Oct 29, 2006 16:52:55 GMT
A very good list, Jane, although I would probably have Kensuke Sasake in the thirties.
And no Antonio Inoki? Truly Scandalous! (j/k)
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Post by tequillin on Oct 29, 2006 17:23:44 GMT
Brilliant list. Hokuto is also the highest women on my list aswell. Jane, have you seen the 2/3 Falls she was in where she broke her neck and held it in place whilst finishing the match? She's one tough fucking woman the amount of injuries she fought through.
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Post by janedoe95 on Oct 30, 2006 1:02:42 GMT
Aww, very relieved to be receiving some feedback, thanks so much guys. Sasake was a tough one. I've had him as high ranked as high as early 50s in previous drafts, but over time I just decided on a lot of names I simply felt were better. I feel he looked about right ranked next to Edge seeing as he does kind of strike me as being, well, Edge-like in his presence of obvious talent but combined with some 'awkwardness', flaws more noticable than that of other top names and a tendency to have most of his best matches with the right opponents. But I am starting to think now that he may possibly deserve to be ranked a bit higher than he is, though certainly not in the 30s.
Inoki as i've stated in the past, is someone I don't feel comfortable ranking until I've seen a bit more work from. He's part of my 'watch list' of names I'm strongly considering for my 100 whom I need to see more work from before deciding on. Currently I'm seeking out: Antonio Inoki Giant Baba Nobuhiko Takada Shiro Koshinaka The Destroyer Jack Brisco Riki Chosu Jackie Sato Hiroshi Tanahashi Yoshinobu Kanemaru Naoki Sano Dory Funk Jr.
Teq, I haven't seen specifically the match where Hokuto wrestled through her broken neck, but I'm aware of it as well as her repuatation of fighting through countless severe injuries. Toughest woman in the history of in the biz for my money.
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