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Post by euanzooom on Sept 15, 2006 17:37:00 GMT
Yeah, I advocated the cutting down to 50 earlier on in another thread as it makes sense for people that wouldn't feel comfortable with a top 100.
For the record, I pretty much agree with Ofster's stance on Flair and have further thoughts on the matter that I can't be arsed posting just now, unless people really want to hear it (which I doubt).
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Post by Adzer on Sept 16, 2006 5:00:38 GMT
Hey Of, I noticed the lack of Ted Dibiase in your list, but was in Jane's
Where would he stand in your top 100 (if at all)
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Post by euanzooom on Sept 16, 2006 12:28:36 GMT
Dibiase has to be in.
Top 50 for me probably.
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 16, 2006 14:47:18 GMT
Akiyama and Tanahashi pretty much own Inoki anyway. I must admit I don’t rate Inoki particularly high on my list. Although I do think his matches from the sixties showcased his ability more than those he had from the mid-seventies, its just a question of being able to locate them. I do think he’s the ultimate legend, and the greatest in a kayfabe sense, but more for what he accomplished in his thirty-seven years than anything else. He comes in around the fifty mark. By the way, Of, although mine are placed slightly differently, our top twelves are made up of the same names: 1. Mitsuharu Misawa 2. Jumbo Tsuruta 3. Dynamite Kid 4. Kenta Kobashi 5. Ricky Steamboat 6. Jushin “Thunder” Liger 7. Eddie Guerrero 8. Shawn Michaels 9. Chris Benoit 10. Harley Race 11. Toshiaki Kawada 12. Bret Hart
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Post by janedoe95 on Sept 16, 2006 17:44:34 GMT
I haven't ranked Inoki, because I've barely the vaguest memory of what his work was like in the maybe 2-3 matches I've watched from him(which occured no less 6 months ago). I remember he had a Modified Ab Stretch finisher, and that's about it. I gather that after I've gotten around to watching (and re-watching) his work, I'd probably end up squeezing him in between 40-60 based on how his reputation makes him sound like. Same with Baba, though I'm not sure where I'd rank him. I'd be highly interested seeing in your entire list, Nathan.
I've modified my top 70 a bit. Inoki's addition wasn't one of the changes but I did remember to add Devil Masami. Don't know how I forgot her, she was badass.
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Post by tequillin on Sept 16, 2006 18:06:16 GMT
Nathan, I'm very surprised you have Shawn above Bret.
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 13:20:52 GMT
Hey Of, I noticed the lack of Ted Dibiase in your list, but was in Jane's Where would he stand in your top 100 (if at all) I've not seen enough of his matches to squeeze him in at the moment.
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Post by tequillin on Sept 17, 2006 13:45:42 GMT
That's going to be the same with my first draft if and when I post it. There's a few workers who have potential to make the list but I haven't seen enough of their matches at all. It's so hard to have seen everyone and everything.
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 17, 2006 14:18:24 GMT
My list will probably change several times before I finish it, and Bret may or may not end up higher than Shawn.
My one negative about Shawn, that has always bothered me a great deal, are the moments when logic seems to get thrown out the window. It isn’t a common occurrence, but it has happened enough for me to recognise it, and I’ll give you a couple of examples of what I mean:
During the Ladder Match with Razor Ramon at Wrestlemania X, Ramon is climbing the ladder, mere seconds from winning the Intercontinental Championship. Shawn climbs onto the apron but, rather than enter the ring and tip the ladder over, saving the match and keeping his hopes of glory alive, he climbs the turnbuckle, wasting valuable seconds, before delivering a dropkick.
During the Triple Threat with John Cena and Kurt Angle at Taboo Tuesday 2005, Angle applies the ankle lock to Cena. The hold is locked for quite some time, Cena is on the verge of tapping, and Shawn climbs onto the apron. Rather than enter the ring, breaking the submission with a kick to the head of Angle, Shawn opts to climb the turnbuckle, wasting valuable seconds.
Others may or may not pay much attention to these things, but I do, and it has always cast a shadow over an otherwise flawless worker, in my view.
In the Triple Threat, his actions make the Ankle Lock seem weak. It is supposed to be one of the deadliest submissions hold in WWE, but there is no sense of urgency on Shawn’s part. If Cena is going to writhe in agony on the canvas, I expect Shawn to do his bit to sell the move. Instead, he has all the time in the world and it is no-selling.
In both matches he is telling me, the viewer, that he doesn’t particularly care about victory. It’s the WWE Championship, the top prize in his world, but he is willing to throw caution to the wind, allowing Cena to remain on the verge of submission, to break the hold with an Elbow Drop. It makes Angle’s finisher look weak, the WWE Championship seem like “no big deal”.
The same with the Ladder Match, for the Undisputed Intercontinental Championship. How am I to believe he really wants it when he shows no sense of urgency in his actions?
Such a minor detail makes all the difference and it almost brings a tear to my eyes, because he is so fucking good on almost every level.
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Post by tequillin on Sept 17, 2006 14:35:13 GMT
Some interesting points and I agree with you on how flawless he is on many levels. I seemed to find that lack of logic at times with Shawn, watching him develop through all my years as a fan. I believe that is why I fell in love with Bret all those years ago, because nobody made it seem more real than Bret Hart. Hell, it was real when Bret was in the ring.
I've just been re-reading our older 'Top 20 Greatest Workers Ever' thread and seeing just how weird/different some of our lists are. Dean Malenko, whilst being a very good worker, just doesn't cut the mustard to me as one of the very best ever. He had such a small body of work and wasn't the total package. I had him in my older list and that, along with some other workers I placed at certain slots, made me realise just how quickly I threw that together and just how much worldwide work I had yet to see.
With all the work I've seen in the last few months, I'm going to put so much more effort and time into my list. So hopefully it should be very credible once it's finished.
My number one is pretty different from everybody else so far.
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 17, 2006 14:48:56 GMT
I look forward to seeing it.
With regards to the logic thing, I may chalk it up to the nature of the matches. It’s just I’ve watched three Shawn Michaels matches, and those were two of them.
I honestly think almost every gimmick match is shit.
Those Ladder matches where one of the competitors has the championship within reach, only to stop, have a change of heart, and deliver a leg drop or whatnot to an already beaten opponent. Why would you do that? You might as well take a dump on the championship whilst you’re at it.
A cage match where one of the competitors opts to climb the cage when a perfectly good door is a few feet away is taking the piss a little bit. When his opponent comes to, and decides to follow, rather than make a beeline for the door…
The Stretcher Match is another one. Stretchers are nice, padded and really rather comfortable, so why place it in front a steel ring post? Why suplex somebody onto a padded stretcher, rather than a steel chair?
Hardcore matches are shit beyond comprehension. One man can take multiple steel chair shots or various other forms of brutal assault in a curtain jerker, but a main event match is decided by a mere chair shot?
Hmm.
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 15:38:59 GMT
As regards Shawn Michaels, it's arguable that you could attribute his dropkick in the ladder match to "The Showstopper" gimmick, which is as much a character trait as a nickname. As I understand it, aside from being a cocky twat, "HBK" is also meant to be a character who will do anything and everything to wow the fans and give them their money's worth if he can afford to. That's how he put himself over in the Hogan feud, anyway. And this case definitely qualifies as an occasion where Michaels had time enough to do something spectacular at the expense of his own body without compromising the match.
As for the HBK/Angle/Cena match... well, perhaps Michaels knew as well as we all do how invincibe Cena is meant to look and took an opportunity to put him over at the expense of Angle.
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Post by euanzooom on Sept 17, 2006 16:03:21 GMT
There are flaws to Michaels but I think your barking down the wrong tree completely with this kind of chat.
You might as well deeply scrutinize and then go on to denounce 90% of WWE wrestling matches if going down this road.
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Sept 17, 2006 16:13:53 GMT
There are flaws to Michaels but I think your barking down the wrong tree completely with this kind of chat. You might as well deeply scrutinize and then go on to denounce 90% of WWE wrestling matches if going down this road. Pretty much exacxtly what I was going to say on the matter.
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 16:32:49 GMT
I denounce 90% of WWE matches anyway.
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Post by euanzooom on Sept 17, 2006 16:54:23 GMT
True, but you know fine well what I mean!
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Post by Nathan Versus on Sept 17, 2006 17:55:30 GMT
Then surely the same logic would justify “The Phenomenal” A.J. Styles in much of what he does in TNA, or “The Wrestling Machine” Kurt Angle, who was a vicious, relentless son-of-a-bitch and performed as such?
Ha! I was thinking the same thing at the time.
I thoroughly disagree.
For the record, I do denounce the vast majority of WWE wrestling matches. I think I have two, maybe three, WWE matches in my all-time top ten list and it those inclusions flatter WWE somewhat.
But what exact flaws are you talking about that are more blatant?
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 18:03:51 GMT
No, because AJ Styles is not the Showstopper. In fact, he doesn't have a gimmick at all. As for Kurt, it's his Wrestling Machine gimmick that I take issue with.
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Post by janedoe95 on Sept 17, 2006 18:12:21 GMT
There are flaws to Michaels but I think your barking down the wrong tree completely with this kind of chat. You might as well deeply scrutinize and then go on to denounce 90% of WWE wrestling matches if going down this road. Pretty much exacxtly what I was going to say on the matter. I could find flaws to the work of most of the best wrestlers. Bret(who's not out of the top ten merely because I'm a Michaels loyalist), Flair (man oh man), Steamboat(namely just the finisher bugs me), Hennig, etc. Heck, even some stuff Sayama and Kobashi have done has made me scratch my head. It's inevitable. But at the same time, a lot of this stuff is also more about personal preference. Since Bret and Shawn aren't the same wrestler, I don't expect them to approach matches the same way. Same with others. Sometimes, in addition to analyzing for flaws(which is all that morons at SC do with wrestlers for whom it would be convenient), we should also emphasize characters and differences in in-ring style.
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Post by OfLegend on Sept 17, 2006 18:25:59 GMT
Yeah, Sayama was far from the perfect worker, especially if you take into account the fact he made his debut under the Tiger Mask in 1981 and retired in '83. He came back in '84, of course, and still looked good, but by '86 had left wrestling completely. He's sort of the George Best of puroresu.
If I were going to criticise Michaels, I'd have to put aside all the criteria I'd normally use to assess or praise American workers and do it completely from a Japanese perspective. He's not stiff enough to be realistic, he needs more mat holds, etc. etc. Like Jane says, not every wrestler should approach a match in the same way.
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