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Post by thatdude21601 on Dec 18, 2006 22:40:43 GMT
So far, for myself....
Destroyer vs Mil Mascaras - 10/9/73 Antonio Inoki vs Billy Robinson - 12/11/75 Chigusa Nagayo vs Devil Masami - 8/22/85 Ricky Steamboat vs Ric Flair - 4/2/89 Clash V Can-Am Express vs Footloose 6/5/89 Jushin Liger vs Naoki Sano 1/31/90 Manami Toyota vs Toshiyo Yamada - 8/15/92 Misawa vs Taue 3/7/93 Kawada vs Hansen 3/13/93 Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki - 11/26/92 Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori - 2/14/93 Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki 4/11/93 Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi - 7/29/93 "Thunder Queen" Elimination match - 7/31/93 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada - 6/3/94 Manami Toyota vs Aja Kong - 11/20/94 Misawa vs Taue - 4/15/95 Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue vs Mitsuhara Misawa/Kenta Kobashi 6/9/95 Toyota vs Mima Shimoda - 7/23/95 Manami Toyota/Sakie Hasegawa vs Double Inoues - 8/30/95 Misawa/Akiyama vs Ace/Williams - 6/7/96 Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Ohtani 2/9/97 Steve Austin vs Bret Hart 3/23/97 Kyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Koshaka - 6/98 Chris Benoit vs Bret Hart 10/4/99 Kenta Kobashi/Go Shiosaki vs Kensuke Office 11/5/05
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Post by euanzooom on Dec 19, 2006 14:47:40 GMT
Nice list!
Haven't got round to doing the Joshi thing yet............
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Post by janedoe95 on Dec 19, 2006 22:14:45 GMT
Minus the horribly out of place Benoit vs Hart match. It doesn't even measure up to Hart-Austin, which I also think is overrated.
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Post by tequillin on Dec 19, 2006 22:30:43 GMT
Ah, trying to knock Bret's work down a peg or two. Bret/Austin is bonafide 5* and one of the greatest matches in WWE history. Bret/Benoit is one of the classiest pieces of wrestling art there is out there. Everytime I watch it, I'm ever so much more proud to be a wrestling fan and is no less than ****1/4.
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Post by thedinosaur on Dec 19, 2006 22:42:14 GMT
I got a few but I can only think of 2 at the moment for some reason...
Kobashi Kenta vs. Akiymama Jun - 2000 Kobashi Kenta vs. Samoa Joe - 2005
I don't usually use the star rating system so this is a bit hard for me.
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Post by janedoe95 on Dec 20, 2006 13:18:15 GMT
If the two matches had featured anyone but Bret, I doubt you'd be accusing me of trying to knock the worker as opposed to simply the matches.
Remember that I have no WWF/E matches rated at 5*, and not just no Bret matches. You could have just as easily accused me of trying to knock down WWF matches a 'peg or two'.
But it's not the greatest match, contrary to the claim tirelessly made by countless people, and some ten years after the match occured no less. As if in all that time no match has lived up to or surpassed it when in fact, there were already matches from prior to it that were better, let alone since.
It's a great match, ok, but that's all. It's not the first or only great match to ever occur. It's work wasn't revolutionary enough to place it above of 95% of other great matches, let alone on the level of those genuine 5* All-Japan matches. It's like a ***1/2 in comparison to those. But anyway, my post was really meant to take exception to the inclusion of Bret-Benoit, and I was only using this match, the second weakest on the list, to further my point about it.
You yourself admit to it not being 5*, yet you take issue with someone stating this very fact and not the blatant misplacement of it into a 5* match list. Again, a great match(actually, just 'very good' in my view), but not innovatively great or anything. It's the only Benoit match to make the list when I can count off the top of my head probably 20 Benoit matches more deserving of a 5* rating. It's also the the only WCW match listed, when I could come up with even a few WCW undercard cruiser matches that are better. I don't agree with a lot of people's choices for 5* matches, but I targetted this one only because I felt it was an exceptionally bewildering choice, and especially sitting on a list next to so many actually genuinely great and 5* worthy matches it stood out like a sore thumb.
I may have been known to believe that a lot of people overrate Bret(which you know is true, from looking at IMDB and SC) and some of his matches, but quite frankly it was you who made this one about Bret, Teqqy.
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Post by tequillin on Dec 20, 2006 14:40:21 GMT
If the two matches had featured anyone but Bret, I doubt you'd be accusing me of trying to knock the worker as opposed to simply the matches. I know, because you don't think much of or barely appreciate his work. I believe a few WWE matches to be 5* and I would have aimed at you knocking down 'WWF matches' but I know your feelings towards Bret, which it seemed you were aiming at here. I'm open to that not being the case here though. I have never ever said it's the greatest match, it's just one of the WWE's greatest. Yes I'm well aware it's not the only great match to occur thanks. It was certainly revolutionary within the context of the match they were performing. There are a lot of Japan matches better I agree but I'm curious to what your reasons are for stating it's nowhere near their level. No epic final stretches?, no long suplex sequences? etc. I'd just like to know as I feel it holds up with the best of pro-wrestling matches, with the puro and western styles being very different as I don't need to state so obviously they're not going to be carried out the same. I took issue with your obvious hatred for a Bret match you consider of lower quality being praised and held on the same level as top caliber matches such as what dude listed. 'Horribly' misplaced, Lord, I've seen a thousand worse matches listed as 5* and I'm sure you have too. Yes not innovatively great, but a classy, beautiful piece of storytelling and the last 'great' match of the 90's from the Western world. Not every 5* match I've seen is revolutionary or highly innovative, just extremely well put together with no flaws and other positives. There are many better Benoit choices I agree, also Bret for that matter. Again, yes theres a good few more WCW matches worthy of a higher placement but my main point here is it's not a horrible, vile, retchid plague on the world of top caliber matches to have somebody place Bret/Benoit amongst them. I can easily understand why it is sometimes rated as such. It's overrating Bret when labelling him #1 as many do but he is genuinely one of the greatest pro-wrestlers of all-time like it or not Jane and a very worthy top 10 in my book after viewing basically his full career. To me, it was you who made it about Bret by knocking his work being regarded as '5*'.
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Post by OfLegend on Dec 20, 2006 16:06:23 GMT
Teq, you, not Jane, clearly made this about Bret.
I also don't see what your problem is here at all. You don't think Benoit/Bret is ***** either.
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Post by tequillin on Dec 20, 2006 16:16:18 GMT
It seemed like a jab.
Yes I don't think Bret/Benoit is 5* but I believe Austin/Bret to be so and I didn't think it was a big deal that either of them were placed within the list.
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Post by OfLegend on Dec 20, 2006 16:22:02 GMT
Yet you've between you managed to make a big deal out of it.
I would rate Bret/Austin at ***** due to its context. If it had been a Tokyo Dome show main event, it would've been closer to ****, and maybe not even that.
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Post by thatdude21601 on Dec 20, 2006 18:07:42 GMT
Bret/Benoit does look out of place in my list, and if it wasn't an Owen tribute with Benoit & Bret wrestling it ...it probably wouldn't be on my list (but it is). I'm not a huge Bret Hart fan, I just think the match is touching and something special.
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Post by whatwhat on Dec 23, 2006 23:34:59 GMT
I agree, Bret/Benoit deserves *****, a classic match on all levels..
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Post by janedoe95 on Dec 24, 2006 2:36:36 GMT
I don't know where you're suddenly getting this idea. You've never even accused me of not liking Bret's work until now. True, I'm not half the Bret fan that you are, but that isn't even due to his work. I mean give me a break, I've even borrowed several Bret matches from you.
Well good to know that you're open, because I have no clue where you're coming from. Yes, I've been known for stating that Bret and a few of his matches are overrated by certain circles of the IWC, but he's far from the only guy who's ever had matches I've thought were overrated. He's not even who I actually blame for the 'overrating', it's the fans I blame for always having been more irrationally biased towards him than just about anyone else for what's probably deeper reasons that go beyond his work.
Come to think of it, the match I mainly took issue with was a WCW match, so I erred there by suggesting you couldve accused me of trying to knock WWF matches. Guess I'm just so used to associating Bret's good matches with the WWF since around 99% come from there. My point still stands otherwise. Both matches I criticized may have featured Bret, but he's had many other good matches, some which I could have simply felt were more deserving than these.
I was voicing that more as a general venting opportunity, than because it was something I felt you needed to be reminded of. It gets so overblown by some people that they DO give the impression of it being the first ever or only ever great match. And that's why I speak out against it. Many of BRET's OWN other matches are amongst the matches that are often shafted in favor of this one so often being considered WWF's best ever match, when I don't feel it was even the best match of 1997.
I don't agree. The timing and booking going into it certainly was special, but the work itself for me didn't stand out amongst other great matches.
Those matches got far more out of me on an emotional level. They amazed me. It's mostly about what it did for me. I first watched Hart-Austin around 2002, and was expecting something on the revolutionary and epic level that I had read it for years been pegged as. I didn't come away with that feeling.
I can concede that maybe if I'd watched it at the time of it's original airing, I may have been more impressed. But to me, the mark of a truly epic match is one that maintains some of that feel even after years and multitudes of viewings. I have re-watched this match a couple of times, trying to approach it with different attitudes and it never got better.
But even this is probably more a criticism of fan's rating of the match, than it is of the match itself. I have it at ****1/2. That's still higher than I've rated the overwhelming majority of WWF matches I've seen. It's only 1/2* off from a perfect rating. How the hell can that bother you? I have no WWF matches rated at 5*. This is not because of Bret. There are very few WWF/E matches that I've rated higher than this. Get a grip, Teq.
No actually. That's the thing. I haven't seen too many actual worse matches be pegged at 5*, at least not by people whose opinions I actually consider to be worth a lick. But yeah there have been some that have been at least equally unworthy, Meltzer's own choices included. I didn't really see them in this particular thread.
Which is my criteria for a 5* match. You have to understand that claiming something isn't 5*, coming from me is NOT an insult. I've specified in the past that my match rating peak is actually ****3/4 with 5 saved for the rare special occasion. Most of the greatest matches otherwise usually fall at ****1/4-****1/2. You and I obviously have somewhat different match rating criteria, but instead of considering all this, you'd just rather focus on that I'm crticizing matches from your favorite wrestler- a guy who rarely even gets bashed for you to be so defensive of him. You should know by now how often I've complimented Bret.
But not 5*. That was my only issue. It's 4* to me and I've actually seen bigger Bret fans than I rate it lower. It just seemed out of place listed among matches I felt were in a much higher league. Maybe my tone was somewhat exaggerated and for that I do apologize...to the person who posted the list that is. I do that sometimes to get a point across, you at least should know that Teq.
Well again, that's where we differ. To me, they have to be innovative or revolutionary or epic, mind-blowing in some way and yes, flawless. I found a few flaws with Hart-Austin and many more so with Hart-Benoit. I also find them with many of my favorite matches from my favorite wrestlers.
I have him in my top 15. What do you want from me Teq? You're sounding like a borderline fanatic now accusing me of 'not thinking much' of his work for seemingly the mere fact that I've criticized it. See, that's a portion of the attitude that I despise the most about the IWC/Bret fanatics and which caused me to sour on him...the idea that he is above criticism. We're seeing each other as being at opposite ends of extremeness now, with you pro and me anti. You're maybe not actually this way due your far more reasonable posts from the past, but you are definitely acting like it right now. Similarly there's enough proof that I'm not 'anti-Bret' just by going through my posts. I have him ranked at #12 of all-time, which is top 10 when eliminating non-North American names and just a mere couple of spots below MY OWN all-time favorite guy whom I'm known for rabidly defending(because let's face it, he needs it about 5000 times more than Bret does).
TWO of his flippin matches make my all-time WWF TOP FIVE list, and yeah the Austin match isn't one of them but gosh, that's ONE match of his I think is overrated as opposed to these two which are 'un-overrated' enough to rank as top 5s. Then there's countless others of his rated at 4*+ which can be found just by looking at one of my many favorite match lists on here or IMDB. I own his DVD and actually recall defending it against criticisms leveled toward it by you, which should indicate that I must have at least on SOME level enjoyed the matches featured.
It was one match. Not even two matches since I didn't actually mean to target Hart-Austin for the criticism despite my not agreeing with it being 5*. ONE match, and it featured Chris Benoit as well. You made this about Bret.
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Post by tequillin on Dec 24, 2006 12:49:23 GMT
I can concede that maybe if I'd watched it at the time of it's original airing, I may have been more impressed. But to me, the mark of a truly epic match is one that maintains some of that feel even after years and multitudes of viewings. I have re-watched this match a couple of times, trying to approach it with different attitudes and it never got better. Everytime I watch it, it holds up and draws me in so much. I never, ever tire of it. I was a rabid watcher in '97 more than any other year and that's probably why I get more enjoyment out of it, yet still can't see flaws with it. I don't think my ratings are too different, just that in the frame of mind I was in, I obviously couldn't rationally see that some people view Hart/Austin as less than 5*. I understand that a 4 1/4* - 4 3/4* rating from you means a great match, I've suddenly become disillusional with what the 5* ratings actually mean to be honest. I've started to take it too seriously and bible-esque. I've never seen any flaws with Hart/Austin to be quite honest and none stick out with the Owen Tribute, thats not my way to say its deserving of 5* though. I didn't want anything from you Jane, I did not intend to come across as on the verge of the Bret insanity disease although I'm finding it hard to see how I am, based off this one thread. I was merely defending Bret though, as I got the idea you were just targeting Bret's work. I was obviously wrong and at the same time, borderlining between having my head up Bret's arse and smelling the fresh air on this occasion. I still totally stand by what I said as I rate Hart/Austin 5* and think extremely highly of Hart/Benoit. Jane, I don't know what your top list of WWE matches are so I wouldn't have that to think about or refer too. I picked up and got the idea it was you, you've stated it wasn't directed at Bret's work personally, just those two happened to be on the list. Fair enough. I need to and I apologise. I shouldn't have gone off like I did just because somebody else doesn't rate Hart/Austin 5*. I'm going wrong somewhere but fanatical is overdoing it by a longshot.
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Post by janedoe95 on Dec 27, 2006 17:01:06 GMT
I'm glad you came around Teq. I had a feeling you might, as you're just too smart and normally too grounded a poster to continue getting carried away. I guess I should somewhat understand your reaction being a rabid Shawn apologist myself, but I just don't see how anyone can be nearly as defensive of a wrestler who doesn't get bashed nearly half as much, or in my view rarely at all. Nevertheless, I accept your apology. I think you may need to think a little more about our history of Bret match discussions on IMDB next time you think that something I say is being unfair to the guy, because I consider myself MORE than fair to him in-ring wise considering how often I tire of the attitudes of his extremist followers, and for all the 'bashing' I've done of the Bret-Austins and Bret-Owens(cage) recently, I've complimented a lot more of his other matches. On that note, you can get an idea of what my top WWE matches are by taking a glance on over to the "Your Top 20 PPV matches" thread in the WWE forums. I've editted it a few times(including a few days ago), just changing around the order of a couple of matches toward the bottom of the list and replacing a couple(due to some match rewatching I've done over the months), but for the most part it looks largely the same as it did when I originally it posted it in January.
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Post by tequillin on Dec 27, 2006 17:23:07 GMT
Yes I do often forget about your history of praising some of his work and I'm sure within their somewhere theres a little bit of a fan.
Ah, I forgot about the Top 20 Matches thread, I'll take a look now you've edited it and I need to edit mine aswell.
Off topic but a little funny story today. I went shopping earlier and I found 'The Wrestling Shop'. I went in and this little kids Mam said to him 'No son there's no Bret Hart figures left' and he was completely trashed. I said to him 'Bret's the best' and he started going 'YEAH He's the best there is, was.......(you know the rest). Well not needing to hear this I just burst out laughing and went. Good to see a little kid actually knowing who he is and rating him above the current roster though, it's just awkward when a small child starts quoting lines and marks out.
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Post by heartbreakkid on Dec 28, 2006 16:47:15 GMT
There are not too many ***** matches out there.
The Dec 96 AJPW tag and the famous Kawada/Misawa match from June 1994 are probably as close as you will get.
In the US, I would go for HBK/Mankind and Bret/Austin SS 96 being as close as you will get.
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Post by nascarsucks on Jan 21, 2007 21:41:00 GMT
Well I haven't watched for a long time, so from what I've seen
***** Joe vs. Punk II Angle/HBK at Mania Do Fixer vs. Blood Generation
I also think Joe/Kobashi and Beniot/HBK/HHH are ****1/2
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Post by tequillin on Jan 21, 2007 21:47:59 GMT
I've always had a problem with Do Fixer vs. Blood Generation being labelled as 5*. It doesn't have pyschology to me and it lacks the genes from the family tree of pro-wrestling, coming across as a spotfested athletic showcased sprint thats forced, reliant on ther pre-planned spots and sequences and they don't look emotionally involved but come across as only focused on remembering their routine. Cheap thrills and entertaining? Yes. Anything else? No.
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Post by JimmyJackJericho on Jan 22, 2007 2:18:50 GMT
BG/DF was a fucking amazing spectacle, but nowhere near the five star mark.
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