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Post by Boricua on Apr 16, 2006 20:03:57 GMT
If we were to extract Warrior and replace him with a bad yet at least competent worker, than I could rate it as high as you all. But Warrior, even though he did step up, that's like saying you met Hannibal Lector on one of his sanest days. Watching Warrior wrestle . . it's like . . . it's like watching death, man.
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Post by euanzooom on Apr 16, 2006 20:05:33 GMT
Its a straight up carry job, and perhaps the best one ever, which explains the rating.
The crowd is one of the most electric crowds I've ever seen (IMO, that adds to a match rating), the stipulation makes the match have meaning, Savage is on another planet as is Martel, the action is truly relentless and the pacing is like something I've never seen before in that they manage to go hammer and tongs without stopping and make it believable.
Finally, to me, it just appears to be a completely unique match that has an intangible factor that makes it rate so high.
You will see a far more in depth and better explanation from me as to why it rates so high in the coming months.
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Post by stevestryker on Apr 16, 2006 21:28:14 GMT
Lance Storm Vs Chris Jericho, ECW One Night Stand.
Excellent curtain opener. Reminded me off Storms match with Jerry Lynn at Anarchy Rulz. Great athleticism shown by both guys as well as some neat technical mat wrestling and some well executed spots like Jericho's sick drop kick to Storm when he when for the leaping elbow from the turnbuckle. My only complaint about the match would be the finish. Justin credible came out and smacked Jericho with a caine, kind of took the shine out of what was a fine match.
Rating: ****
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Apr 16, 2006 21:44:11 GMT
BL and tequiliin, what the fuck is the matter with the pair of you? Some matches, such as this one, you have to rate in regards to everything, including crowd reaction and involvement, how well they covey meaning and emotion, and how well the bring the feud/backstory into the match, all of which were done as well as I've ever seen.
As Euan and Nathan rightly stated, it is pretty much sacrilegious to rate this bout as anything other than ****1/2(personally I'd give it unlimited stars if I could). The best match I have ever seen, I still get goosebumps watching it now.
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Post by OfLegend on Apr 16, 2006 21:46:46 GMT
Only because you found Warrior arousing, Brighteyes.
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Post by Boricua on Apr 16, 2006 21:50:18 GMT
Look I'd like to believe, I really would. But Warrior makes John Cena look like Triple H. He may have played the role well, but still did it with a boring offense, and with too much no-selling.
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Apr 16, 2006 21:52:45 GMT
@of: It was his long flowing locks, that really got me going.
@bl: Warrior used no less moves than The Rock did vs Austin, at wrestlemania X7.
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Post by tequillin on Apr 16, 2006 22:16:08 GMT
I do take into account the crowd, back story and everything but due to my dislike for the Warriors talent as a wrestler and the lack of technical ability he posseses I am incapable of praising this match as highly as you.
People have different tastes for wrestling as with everything else and I like more technical matches. I just naturally do not enjoy watching Warrior perform.
I definately agree that it is his best match though. The best one I ever saw him in anyway.
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Post by Boricua on Apr 16, 2006 22:24:37 GMT
Ah screw it, let's not beat the dead horse. Here's a consolation offering for ya Brightside:
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Post by janedoe95 on Apr 16, 2006 23:35:24 GMT
At the risk of losing a little bit of respect from fellow awters I have to admit that I wasn't crazy about Warrior-Savage myself on my initial viewing of it back four years ago, and I'd rated it about the same as BL. But I've since grown as a fan, and emphasize importance on different things then I did then. I never even hated Warrior, but the lack of offense used(as mentioned by others), lack of selling and abrupt ending really pissed me off from what I remember. Then when comparing it to Warrior's match with Rude from Sumslam '89 which I watch not too long later, and enjoyed a whole lot better, I felt even worse about the Savage match.
I rewatched it a few months back and have a much better appreciation for it. Great crowd heat and surprisingly in-depth psychology from Warrior(as mentioned by Brighty). Although despite this being Warrior's best individual performance, I still say it was mostly a carry job. Matches carried mostly on emotion don't tend to garner as high of a rating as matches that equally mix emotion and in-ring performance, so I went **** on the re-watch(which is 1/4 a star higher than I gave the Rick Rude match). But to tell you truth that was partly because of the clipping as I wasn't sure if I should even be rating a match in which I wasn't sure how much wasn't shown. So I was still open to the possibility of ****1/4.
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Post by janedoe95 on Apr 17, 2006 0:00:08 GMT
Rock vs HHH, Judgment Day 2000 Iron Man Match
I've been on a real match re-watching kick as of late, basically seeing how my views and star ratings hold up in comparison to initial viewings of matches I haven't seen in a few years. Mostly, I've actually succeeded in enjoying matches MORE than I used to..save noticeably for the Rock-Austin Mania X-Seven match as described above. On a re-watch of Hart-Michaels Iron Man match, from my initial viewing three years ago, I managed to appreciate it a lot better and bump the star rating up up by about 1/2. So how about that OTHER widely acclaimed Iron Man match?
My initial viewing of this match was on its initial airing back in 2000. I remember disliking it for the length(didn't like Iron Mans at the time) and more importantly the screwy ending, as I was a huge Rock mark and was sick of the upper hand constantly being given to HHH in storylines. On a second viewing two years later I admittedly only got through half of the match, and must have not been in a 'wrestling viewing' mood at the time as I struggled concentrating and didn't care for what I'd seen. So my opinion of this match so far hasn't been all that educated, and I set out once and for all to rectify this.
I was pleasantly surprised, as my feeling, as probably with many was how could HHH and Rock hold up an hour in a match, and whose idea was it to begin with? Bret and Shawn was clearly understandable, but its hard to watch HHH and Rock individually go thirty minutes some of the time. But somehow they made it work. There were notable flaws, as is usually evident in the work of each performer. Also a couple of botched spots. But the hatred and brutality was illustrated in the way it should considering the context of their feud(which wouldn't have made as much sense in Hart-Michaels considering their program wasn't hate-filled going into the match, and the extensive mat work illustrated what it was about...Michaels proving he can go an hour with the company's best technical worker). Rock also stepped it up on the mat, even though his execution was as usual..not so great. But props for trying.
Still, its Rock and HHH...its not Bret and Shawn. I don't think this was as good as Mania XII, and don't quite understand so many others thinking it was. Sure, it was more 'active', but only because of the story and the type of workers we were dealing with. The mat work in Mania XII made SENSE and was well-executed, so what other way would they go? If you were 'bored' by it then try to stay clear of 70s technical and NJPW matches I say, cause those are far more 'boring' in that regard. Anyway, which match am I reviewing here?? Yeah. This match also contained the incredibly screwy sports-entertainment ending that Michaels-Hart lacked(and yeah, I prefer the overtime to the interference). But nevertheless, Rock and HHH pulled out all the stops, and to Michaels' credit...he was more of an impartial referee then I'd intially believed years ago(I HATED him for rewarding HHH the DQ win at the time. My Michaels love hadn't quite been established at that point, believe it or not). ****1/4
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Post by tequillin on Apr 17, 2006 14:06:10 GMT
Shawn Michaels w/ Sherri vs Bret Hart - June 2nd 1992
A nice little match between the two. Bret worked the arm at the beginning before Michaels gained the upper hand and basically punished Bret working on his head and neck for quite some time.
Some quick pacing, nice exchanges between the two and many near falls towards the end resulted in a surprsing finish.
Bret won with a roll-up after Michaels knocked Sherri off the apron.
Michaels caught Bret with a nice sweet chin music in this one. It's worth a watch to see these go at it, it's just a shame Sean Mooney & Lord Alfred Hayes don't make a good commentary team.
What made it slightly better than one of those quick lackluster matches is that it was in Canada and their was a lot of Hart fans so the crowd was decent and they were given around 14 mins. Plus Sherri is always amazing.
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Post by Carl on Apr 17, 2006 17:31:23 GMT
Satoshi Kojima vs Homicide AJPW vs ROH Final Battle 2003
A match I obtained thanks to Arg316. I don't really have much to say to expand on his account posted on Page 1 but I might aswell clear my brain.
AJPW were down 2 - 0 against ROH with only two matches left. Kojima needed to win to give AJPW a chance to avoid defeat. The match was going well with Kojima throwing in comedy spots as mentioned before by Nathan. The match took a turn for the worse when Homicide landed on his head on the outside thanks to an overhead belly to belly suplex. For the rest of the match he was gorggy and carried through by Kojima. Sad really because it could have been a ***** match. In all I would give it ***1/2.
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Post by JimmyJackJericho on Apr 18, 2006 17:43:06 GMT
I actually rated Rock/H above Michaels/Hart, mainly because Hart/Michaels was a ballet dance, a recital of moves, and Rock/H was more spontaneous. Something Hart himself said in a few interviews.
Stan Hansen vs Vader NJPW
HIS EYE CAME OUT OF HIS SOCKET!
Ugh, brutal stiff match, but it was basically a load of punches.
**
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Post by Carl on Apr 18, 2006 17:49:12 GMT
Rob Van Dam vs Eddie Guerrero Intercontinental Championship - Ladder Match RAW 2002
Another match acquired thanks to Andy. A decent ladder match which sticks out due to the fan coming from the Edmonton crowd and trying to push Eddie off of the ladder. The ending was also botched with RVD falling off of the top of the ladder before being able to land a 5 Star Frog Splash. A new end sees Eddie knocked to the outside and Van Dam scale the ladder and grab the belt in an anti-climax. However due to the sick bumps I give this match ***.
Chris Benoit watched the match from the outside and this planted the seed that would lead to RVD vs Beoit for the IC Title a month or so later at SummerSlam. Possibly Van Dam's best match in his WWE career.
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Post by Cowards on Apr 18, 2006 23:19:52 GMT
Just so you, I can tell you bugger all about "ring psychology" or Ratings, I just wanted to add my 3 pennies worth into the wallet...so...
WWF In Your House 10: Mind Games From 1996, and what I thought was quite a good mini-PPV. The opening match, Savio Vega vs Justin "Hawk" Bradshaw was a bit shit really, mainly a whipping contest but had what I thought was an awesome spot where Vega ran to the final corner then spun around by JHB tugging the strap back. The ending was good as well, similar to JBL/Eddie where JBL touched behind him the corners as Eddie was doing the same, Savio took JBL's role, and won it when Bradshaw threw him into the corner with Vega picking up a win...
The next match I can talk about was Smoking Gunns vs Hart/Bulldog. Good match, but I wasn't really paying much attention as I was focusing on the lovely Sunny...Ending with Billy pushing Bart into Bulldog allowing him to Powerslam Bart and finish it off. Sunny went all stroppy (and damn hot) and fired the Smoking Gunns. For me it wasn't that much of a memorable match (which is a shame I know, but...it just was). Also, a short match with Jerry "The King" vs Mark Henry in his in ring debut. I liked King's holding of the mic and mouthing off about Henry not being able to reverse a headlock, which he did into a hammerlock. I don't remember the ending, but Henry came out victorious, and good ol' HHH (w/ 2 others) came out, laid some punches into Mizzark but got tossed out of the ring...sadly. Mark Henry celebrated, and the World must have thought we would be stuck with the guy for the next 10 years!
The top of the card was HBK vs Mankind. I liked this match, as it had some nice spots, notabally a SCM with Mankind on the top turnbuckle, Shawn stepping off a chair and hitting another chair into Mankind's face. As well as a painful suplex on Mick slamming his knee into the steps, and Shawn dropkicking Mankind under the outside mats and stomping (as in jumping up and down on him) under the mat and then slamming his head into the concrete when he got back up. This match ended sadly by DQ when I believe Vader ran out attacking Shawn Micheals. Undertaker also attacked Mankind after the DQ and they fought out of the ring area.
I won't give this a proper rating as it was just an In Your House, and I'm shit at rating...but I liked the PPV and it was a good way to spend an evening...
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Post by janedoe95 on Apr 19, 2006 1:17:13 GMT
I actually rated Rock/H above Michaels/Hart, Well yeah I figured that. A lot, if not most people rank it above Michaels/Hart, but I'll never, ever agree. Well Bret was proud enough of the match to have originally wanted it on his DVD. It was however kept off for other reasons (either already being on Michaels' DVD, being too long or both).
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Post by thecarver on Apr 19, 2006 7:11:34 GMT
I agree with Jane Doe, the Bret vs Shawn IMM was better than the rock vs hhh. Also FYI Jane Doe, Bret said he wanted to put the IMM on his dvd, but couldn't simply due to the length of the match (as it would have meant compensating at least 3 matches to put it on)
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Post by tequillin on Apr 19, 2006 9:23:30 GMT
I rate Hart/Michaels above HHH/Rock. I'll never change my mind either. I've seen both numerous times.
On another note I watched Savage/Warrior last night and I must say it is a classic. I was pretty naive about the topic because I've never been a fan of Warrior and hadn't seen the match for a long time. Savage and most definately Sherri carry him to a terrific display of storytelling and emotion. It drew me in like I'd never have thought.
The match had awesome commentary from Heenan and Monsoon, an emotional and electric crowd, a good feud leading up to the match, Elizabeth watching from the crowd which gave it something different because you knew she'd get involved somehow and most noteably Sherri playing a vital role. The entrances were great, with Savage coming down like royalty and Warrior actually walking instead of running which added to the importance of the 'career ending stipulation' that showed he was taking it seriously. Not to mention Warriors jacket was cool as fuck.
I've never rated matches with the star rating before but I'd have to give it at least ****1/4.
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Post by janedoe95 on Apr 21, 2006 2:13:07 GMT
I agree with Jane Doe, the Bret vs Shawn IMM was better than the rock vs hhh. Also FYI Jane Doe, Bret said he wanted to put the IMM on his dvd, but couldn't simply due to the length of the match (as it would have meant compensating at least 3 matches to put it on) Yeah I think I remember hearing it was due to the length of the match, though the match being on Michaels DVD would have made its presence kind of useless anyway. Good to see some Hart-Michaels IM love around here. I used to think this match was both over and underrated, now I just feel its merely underrated.
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