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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 11:52:09 GMT
For me, it's obvious.
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Post by euanzooom on Aug 1, 2006 12:17:27 GMT
Apart from he turned heel in late 2001 and then pretty much went face around Vengeance 2002, dude.
I actually like JBL when not champ, but Undertaker heel 2001-2002 is one of my top 4 heels ever in WWE.
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Post by Leonard(o) on Aug 1, 2006 12:19:44 GMT
Taker, 2001-2002. Partly because he was a better wrestler than JBL and I can picture more guys in fear of him
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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 12:20:57 GMT
Yes, typo, thank you.
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Post by euanzooom on Aug 1, 2006 12:24:39 GMT
Always a pleasure, better I do it, than a COMPLETE waste of a wagrag doing it.
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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 12:27:43 GMT
I concur wholeheartedly.
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Post by ravenmack on Aug 1, 2006 12:34:21 GMT
I have to say JBL. He got all kinds of heel heat when he was champ, and sure, some of it might have been cheap heat, but Taker did the same thing when he shoved J.R.'s face in Vince's ass. But really, the only reason why I say JBL is because everybody hated the guy. When Taker had his good heel run, he got over, but he still had his following of fans and would occassionaly still receive cheers.
But don't get me wrong, I was much more entertained by Taker's heel run than JBL's, I just think JBL got over as a heel much more than Taker did.
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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 12:36:20 GMT
It's not about getting over as a heel, it's about who was the better heel.
During X-Pac's X-Factor run, he was booed out of the building every night. Same with Buff Bagwell post-WCW.
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Post by ravenmack on Aug 1, 2006 12:42:32 GMT
Well, that's kind of what I'm saying. I think JBL played the heel better than Taker. And that's not saying that Taker was bad at it or anything, because honestly, he was great. But to me, Taker still had the aura of being cool, where JBL came off as a complete dickhead. I'd put JBL's heel run with the title right up there with some of Flair's runs. And that's not saying JBL is as talented as either Flair or Taker, but as far as playing the heel, JBL did it to perfection.
Edit: Oh, and X-Pac and Bagwell got booed because they sucked, not because of heel heat, lol.
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Post by euanzooom on Aug 1, 2006 13:02:00 GMT
Not shitting on you Ravenmack, but here's why this Taker is one of my favourite heel runs ever....
I felt that this actual character was the one that Calloway was most in control of and suited best how he should've been as a professional wrestler.Don't get me wrong 'deadman' was great in terms of merchandise and storylines with cool effects, however, when Calloway came back in 2001, he began to portray himself as it were with the American Badass gimmick.
Now, I've always felt that Undertaker made a better heel, owing to his size, his look and how agressive he could be in the ring.To me, heel American badass (which is pretty much what it was) fucking rocked.Calloway could be himself and use his decent mic skills properly, and in the correct fashion, as he's magnificant when he's intimidating.This way, he wasn't creepy, he just scared the shit out of me by being a large, moody, evil agressive fuck. His promos were of a very high standard around this time
He cut his hair and it was a fucking masterstroke.It made him look a lot meaner when he came out on his bike and it suddenly put on show all the great facial bits of acting that had been hidden in the past. This is what I mean when I say he was at complete ease and in control.If you watch a match from this period, his acting and facial expressions are simply fucking brilliant (in the same way I love 2003 Rock) and show a natural aptitude for this character.
He was also just cool to watch as a sick fuck kicking the shit out of people.Maven at Royal Rumble 02, Jeff Hardy, RVD at Vengeance 01 all were decimated and Undertaker came across as this sick fuck and played it brilliantly. The look on his face when Maven eliminates him at RR 05 is awesome and this is a side of wrestling I fucking love - the smaller pieces of acting that make a better whole.
It also allowed his matches to be, in my opinion, better as well (give or take a few classics in the past).Undertaker v Rock at No Way Out 02 is underrated I think.He could play the heel, which I felt he was better at, and he could wrestle without no selling which was the main advantage of the American Badass gimmick.
Most importantly to me, it was fun. I'd never enjoyed Undertaker that much before and all of a sudden he seemed to be firing on all cylinders again, except this time, more to my tastes.
In addition, I refute anyone to tell me that they don't enjoy watching a monster just destroy swathes of people. People take offense, when it's untalented Goliaths swatting away skilled wrestlers.At least on this occasion, 'takers been around for a long time and shown talent.
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Post by Leonard(o) on Aug 1, 2006 13:14:30 GMT
Well said
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Post by ravenmack on Aug 1, 2006 13:54:00 GMT
I agree with you 110% Euan. His "American Badass" heel run was about the only time that I liked Taker. Also, that's when, in my opinion at least, he was at the top of his game wrestling wise, and mic work wise, because he was pretty much playing himself. My point is, I think JBL was the better heel though, only because of the heat he could generate. And whoever was feuding with him, you wanted them to beat JBL's ass. With Taker, a lot of the time, I know with me at least, I was rooting for him to win, because I bought into the stuff like, "It's my yard" and stuff like that. And like I said before, I was much more entertained by Taker than JBL, but I just think JBL was the better heel, everybody hated the guy.
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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 15:55:23 GMT
That's basically why JBL got booed. People have never accepted him as a main eventer, especially not one who garnered cheap heat with borderline racical attacks and a stupid slurring voice. Oh, and his gimmick was basically a poor man's Vince crossed with a badly executed Stan Hansen rip-off.
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Post by ravenmack on Aug 1, 2006 16:35:42 GMT
I would agree with that Of, because I felt the same way about JBL when he first won the title, but then he starting growing on me. He really embraced the heel aspect of his character, and still does today. Sure, he utilizes cheap heat, but he's a master of it, in my opinion at least. My main reason for saying JBL's heel run was better, is because even when the Taker was heel, people still liked him.
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Post by OfLegend on Aug 1, 2006 16:37:54 GMT
But there's no way The Undertaker could've turned everyone against him. He had too much of a following beforehand. JBL got over as a heel more thanks to factors that are not related to his heeling ability.
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Post by +Donald $. Carlos+ on Aug 1, 2006 16:44:06 GMT
That's basically why JBL got booed. People have never accepted him as a main eventer, especially not one who garnered cheap heat with borderline racical attacks and a stupid slurring voice. Oh, and his gimmick was basically a poor man's Vince crossed with a badly executed Stan Hansen rip-off. Damn, Of . . . you're on FIRE! Seriously, though . . . I agree 100%. JBL was only big because of the fact that SmackDown! had NO ONE ELSE to push toward the level of a main event heel. The Undertaker's "American Bad Ass" heel run, however, was one of the greatest of all time . . . as Euan pointed out. It gave Calloway the chance to express himself as a real, believable person . . . because it was more in-tune with how he acted in real life. Bradshaw's just an ignorant Texas fuck. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Elvis-Lives
Curtain Jerker
Welsh in mind, Welsh in body, Welsh in soul.
Posts: 165
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Post by Elvis-Lives on Aug 1, 2006 17:25:54 GMT
I don't refute the claims that Taker was, is and always will be the superior worker of the pair and also managed to wrestle a style more in keeping with the psychological elements of playing heel (JBL pretty much just brawled, generically and not very interestingly). However, the best heels are those that can get their opponents (the face), over as much as possible whilst also maintaining the fans chagrin (Michaels, circa 1997, managed this magnificently, even when in DX who were as we all know considered "cool"), which there is no doubt in my mind that JBL did better than Taker. I'm not saying that initially it JBL's heat was case of "get your arse out of the main event and off my television" heat, but once it was clear he was in the main event to stay his natural flair with the stick and the vigor by which he played his character took over and what he did thus came across as both natural and bastardly.
The character plays on all the characteristics in life that we "mere mortals" tend to despise; he was "rich", he was arrogant, he was condescending, he looked down at the common man and he actually believed in everything he said and did. The JBL character is just the archetypal heel/bad guy/evil villain, and Bradshaw performs it to perfection. The way in which JBL will smile regardless of the reception he receives due to an innate lack of care for peasants and an equally innate belief that he is indeed everything he pertains to be, that type of role playing/characteristic is exactly the type of thing that rubs people up the wrong way and JBL, to his credit, knew/knows this and thus hams it up even more than is necessary. A guy who can work a crowd as well and as easily as that deserves some credit.
Taker's character, in comparison to JBL's was far more tweener like and I, as a big follower and fan of Diesel's heel runs (particularly the turn after SS '95), within the WWF/E, couldn't help but think 1) it was a rip off of a character that was never quite fully explored, hence most of it had been done before and 2) the character itself wasn't even as good or as well played out as the one he was ripping off, he was always a poor man's Diesel in my eyes, in spite of the fact that he was probably a superior worker.
Of course, this is all subjective, but that's the way in which I see it.
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Post by Hunny Bee on Aug 1, 2006 18:03:51 GMT
well i know that i hate JBL more than i have ever hated Undertaker.
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Post by Mr-Brightside on Aug 4, 2006 2:09:16 GMT
Hmmm, very interesting...
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Post by Bill Covington on Aug 4, 2006 2:17:59 GMT
If I may try to make sense in one of my posts'. I think a lot of people gave Taker heat due to the fact that they didn't like the biker gimmick (feel free to tell me I suck at life), and that JBL was getting legit heel heat.
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